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DaaT · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 3:59 pm1 Post subject: Xentronix Update and Rant

Sorry for the following rant, read ahead only if you have nothing better to do.

If you head over to the Xentronix news page, http://www.xentronix.com/index.php?Cat=News you can see their latest update named Don't Mess With Fairplay!, and rightly so. It's not about coding or app updates this time, about something else, as much or more important, the community. And i couldn't agree more with Frans. What he talks about i've seen before, apps that have, in general, good voting and then one person giving that app the vote of 1. It's happened just now with Refraction and Sample Studio. In the same day...

Now, why would someone do this? I'm not trying to guess who did it, i really don't care about someone who would do that, not because the app deserves it, but for some other reason. The why... as i've said, i noticed this before when voting in some apps... maybe trying to disencourage the developer? Who knows...

Point is, the BeOS community, which i love, is considered amongst the best, friendliest in the business, but as in everything, there's the old black sheep. And now in these times, when unity is more and more needed, it comes out more clearly. I've seen this in other situations as well, those who go to IRC know what i'm talking about, few folks badmouthing developers, guys who are doing _real_ work, who deserve nothing but our support and help whenever needed, don't contribute to the success of our campaign. Have no doubt people, these are exciting but also difficult times. This time there's no company behind the effort, no team of engineers working together, this time it's only us, the users and developers. Every help counts as you've read over and over again, if you're a coder, code, if you're a user test and give feedback. This goes for OpenBeOS, apps, drivers, everything.

If we don't stick together on this one, we have NO chance of pulling it off, the dream will be over. I know the progress seems slow, but it's never stopping. We all know making an OS from scratch isn't easy nor speedy. And what was accomplished so far is astounding.

So people, put aside petty issues, put aside personal grief with someone else, unite and push/pull forward. We have one common goal: see OpenBeOS thrive and grow. And for that we need coders, users, together.

Phew.. ok, end of rant, for those brave ones who read all of it, thank you and sorry if i bored you.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit shell for a 16-bit extension to an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."

arougthopher · NewBe Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 3

As you said, it happens everywhere. I get good comments, and I get bad comments on BeZilla. However, the bad comments also usually include profanity and plain rudeness. For the most part, I tend to ignore the bad comments, but, occasionally, I reply to them, and then, usually, get an appology in retrun

Thing is, most people don't go to BeBits for information of BeZilla anymore. They go to BeZilla.org. And there, if you want to comment, you MUST log in, and therefor, have a valid email address, so that people can't annonymously complain to me. The comments at BeBits require login as well, and the votiing, but, there is NO way to determine who voted what. At least not by the developer. This is why I no longer look at the voting results at BeBits, but, at the Download count. That is a better sign of how well the app "rates", but, only works really after the 2nd or 3rd version is released.

Oh well, peoples is peoples.
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--
paul

DaaT · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:24 pm3 Post subject:

Right you are Paul. I've heard you talk about those comments before, and it's another part of what i talked about, the forum comments.

That reaches even further back in time, remember those discussions in BeNews?

Like you said, "peoples is peoples"

Take care, and, keep up the great work,
DaaT
_________________
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit shell for a 16-bit extension to an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."

capoccia · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:00 pm4 Post subject:

now, i must begin by saying that i didn't vote for this program.

i always thought that the initial response of top place was a little out of line. how can a beta (that will segfault on every startup until you start deleting plugins) be better rated than any other program?

if you're worried about fairplay, there are many programs that no one bothers to vote for and are still below 10 votes. i know i rarely vote for a program because logging in doesn't work from net+ and it's too much effort to load mozilla just so i can vote. not voting must be the typical reaction because refraction only has 20 votes and samplestudio only has 26.

the other interesting thing is that it's possible from the way xentronix worded their statement, that they only recieved one vote of 1 for each program. is this really cause for concern? do they really think that everyone is going to think that their products are the best thing since sliced bread?

when sample studio or refraction are released as stable, i plan on buying both of them, but right now, xentronix shouldn't be expecting everyone to love their ugly ducklings. wait until you see the swans.

DaaT · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:35 pm5 Post subject:

Good points. But like i said, it's not the first time i've seen this. An app has good votes (a non-beta app which is your argument, btw, even beta, ppl are using them, are they worth 1?), and it was one or two votes of 1. For example, Soundplay has two votes of 1, it's (imho) one of the best BeOS apps, you think it deserves it? Someone thought it did, sure, but why?

Quoting BeBits:

Jack Burton · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:16 am6 Post subject:

I tought that one had to be logged on Bebits to vote... can anyone vote without log-in?

JMac · Pencil Pusher Joined: 14 Jun 2002 Posts: 22 Location: UK

I've got to agree with all that's been said.
Constructive criticisim is always helpful, but abuse does nothing to help the community. Inferno is still in Beta, and while I've only had a quick play with it I've also had a lot of fun with it.
It may not slay PhotoShop on it's first outing (that's an unrealistic expectation), but it is still a very good application, and if BeOS is to survive it needs more applications just like this.

Double S · NewBe Joined: 19 Jul 2002 Posts: 1 Location: Spain

Well personally I thing this whole "voting" thing is only reasonable just to "encourage" the developer.
I never voted lower than 5 on BeBits ever, what's the point tellin' somebody you don't like his app?
You whant him to know you liked it, and then ... how much you like it.

So why shouldn't I vote a Beta app? I whant him to know I like the app, whant him to continue, and are telling him how good my opinion his of the ACTUAL state of the app.
There have been thimes I RE-voted the app at BeBits cause the app had been improved, so my opinion improved accordingly.
I thing there are reasons to "vote low", like "you don't like the GUI design" or "menus differ to much from BeOS standards", or "the app is worse than other similar beos app", or "the app is not localized nor does it implement options to".
But how could I vote low because its beta? or because it's unstable?, or because it lacks functionality? That ain't worth criticism, it does not give any feedback.

People who vote low (like 1 out of 10) are probably just assholes that don't know how much work it is to program, let alone to put your wife and children aside to program for the community.
I received (i'm reporter @ a spanish BeOS community web) mails of people tellin' me to program "more games", "more apps", "direct X compatible", etc. Well it's clear to me they do not understand shit about this whole BeOS thing nor about programming.

To those people doin' wonderfull work, no matter how little, even the smallest of all apps, or just like me just havin' a web about BeOS and encouraging people to get in this WONDERFULL community, or just writing manuals, or beta testing, or VOTING in the polls, or writing to Nvidia and Matrox to ask for drivers, ..... KEEP THE GOOD WORK, I LOVE YOU ALL.
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Frans van Nispen · Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2002 12:36 pm9 Post subject: Not mourning

Hi,

I do not expect everyone to love our programs. Nor do I think that our beta's should be the best programs BeOS has ever seen.

It is verry true that the Refraction beta's had some issues, but that is what beta's are for, solve the problems.

btw. If you remove the bark.jpg from the data/pattenrs directory, Refraction runs without removing plug-ins. This was found by a user of our beta, and is exactly why we release these.

SampleStudio on the other hand, is experienced to be verry stable. I was overwhelmed by emails from nice people.

But this is NOT the point at all !

I have seen it more often since I watch the votes. People just voting low to nag the developers, or to degrade an app because they can not stand another doing better.

Eugenia once left the BeOS scene for a couple of weeks, and BeGirl also was called lots of names by people. The creator of Sequitur had a complete letter to the community on BeNews.

It is the behaviour of some in the community that needs our attention !

While all of us love BeOS and trying to make something of it, and most of us dislike the Windows scene for it's arogant people, still there are some left to bother us with this crap !

If there is something you dislike about a product, or want to see improved, please mail the author ! This is they only hope in seeing it improved.

Fortunately we also get a LOT of support from the community, and still love it, so the two votes for 1 do not bother us.

Frans van Nispen.
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Refraction & SampleStudio Developer.

DaaT · Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2002 12:42 pm10 Post subject:

Exactly my point Frans.

Fortunately, those black sheep are only a very small minority of the whole (am i sounding Borg-like here?), the good response outweighting the bad.

So people, like Frans says, if you want to help and see apps improve, there's only one word needed: FEEDBACK! Coders love it like monkeys like a banana

DaaT
_________________
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit shell for a 16-bit extension to an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."